Wow, all those other teens are amazing, because the parents of that so called bullied teen made a statement that, first of all the student was not gay, and that they were never told of any such incident.

If you want to talk about Lies you should read " Barack Obama's " self written autobiography, He talks about many things that happened in his history that, he himself and came out and said were composites of many experiences and were lies in his book. His fathers first wife and disputed things that he states as facts.

I also find is interesting that the media has questioned Mitts grandfather for being a polygamist but have been silent on that fact that President Obama's father was married to two different women, never divorced, and President Obama's mother was just a girl friend sandwiched in between the first and the second wives. Doesn't that make President Obama the Illegitimate son of a polygamist?

But hey lets focus on this crap because if we talk about the economy Mitt would crush the Prez.

I've got copies of both of the President's books, and I promise I'll read them. Right now though, I'm engaging in research on Romney's ancestors. It's pretty clear Obama barely knew his father and didn't adopt his religion.

Romney, in a piece written about Salt Lake and the Wasatch Front just prior to the 2002 Winter Olympics which he chaired, wrote about his "great grandfather" (whose faith he shares), Parley P. Pratt, whom he claimed was the first to explore the mountain pass the Mormons used to enter the valley in 1847. He also noted this became I-80 that does enter the valley through Parley's Canyon.

Only that last bit survived my fact-checking. Parley P. Pratt was his great-great grandfather, and he arrived in the valley three months after the first pioneer party who arrived via a different route first blazed by the ill-fated Donner Party the year before.

And Romney made no mention that Pratt was murdered near the Oklahoma-Arkansas border ten years later, killed by the estranged husband of a man whose wife he'd taken as his own 12th plural wife.

BTW, what happened to the RW talking oink® that insisted Bill Ayers ghost-wrote Obama's books? Did that one go the way of the Birth Certificate nonsense?

When you get around to youf hero's Obama's "Dream of My Father" be sure to note the passages where he writes of his drinking and drug use (hints of selling drugs too) in his High School years (continued into college years) and the rather nasty incident he describes as bullying a girl by shoving her so hard in the hallway of his High School that she reeled backwards trying to catch her balance, and when she did she ran from him in fear.

But you won't see that mentioned by the Liberal Media having their usual field day trying to dig up dirt on Romney from a hazing incident in his prep school days some 50 years ago.

@chemdmd: Your blatantly obvious attempt to try and shift the topic of conversation to something that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about is charming, though I've no intention of indulging your ranting.

Though if you're dead set on discussing President Obama and what happened in his past - in a civil and respectable manner, of course - then I suggest we wait for a more appropriate time to present itself.

Sorry...you don't get to pick the topics of my posts, Ryan.

@Keith Longey: If you had paid attention to my post, you would've realized I was speaking with respect to chemdmd, not you, something which I went out of my way to make clear by having "@chemdmd" before saying anything else.

An honest misunderstanding I'm sure, but please try to be more observant next time.

@chemdmd, The point you seem to be missing is that the reason we bring up Mitt's grandfather's past is not to paint him or Mitt as some kind of "dirty" candidate, but rather to reinforce the point that marriage has not always, legally or religiously, been "one man and one woman for life." Whether Obama has a past or not is irrelevant to this particular discussion about this particular video clip.

And why not? The fact that Obama's father was a bigamist and adulteror didn't affect his moral code that has him falling into the "rights" for gays hedomnistic secularist movement? The routes of polygamy in the Morman faith official renounced in the 1960s are found in the fact that due to the scarcity of landed men in the Western expansion and agricultural based economy weathier males took on several wifes to support them and to provide for their children. It was as much economic driven as religious philosophically driven.

Well said. I totally agree.

If you haven't heard, the Romney classmate of 50 years ago in prep school that provided the interview information to the Wahington Post on which this "story" (read political hit job) was written has come forth to admit he was not present during the incident of hazing and was suppling hear say information only.

Romney's morals are so straight that they had to go back to a high school prank to get some dirt. Recall the nonsense The New York Times tried to put out on John McCain's supposed "recent" dalliance with a Washington lobbyist? It happens every year, folks.

Compare this to Obama's own written admission of his drug use and drinking and class skipping in his high school years, and his admission of the incident of bullying when he shoved a girl in the hallway before a crowd of students, and sent her reeling backwards, and once she gathered up her feet under her she ran in fear from him. That was in "Dreams of My Father" in his own written word.

Here's the original story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mitt-romneys-prep-school-classmates-recall-pranks-but-also-troubling-incidents/2012/05/10/gIQA3WOKFU_print.html

"The incident was recalled similarly by five students, who gave their accounts independently of one another. Four of them — Friedemann, now a dentist; Phillip Maxwell, a lawyer; Thomas Buford, a retired prosecutor; and David Seed, a retired principal — spoke on the record. Another former student who witnessed the incident asked not to be identified."

To add: Lauber's (the victim) sisters are distraught that he (Lauber) should be classed as a homosexual and effeminate; he was a very gentle, kind and loving person, and totally non-confrontational. They both said Lauber did not talk of the incident and they knew nothing of it. He was expelled because he was caught smoking (in the bushes at school).

What has made this incident bad for Romney is that he laughed, much like he did when he said he 'liked to fire people." The fact is, he's [Romney] very weak and has no thoughts of his own. I happen to like him personally, but he says only what he is told to say which is why he puts his foot in his mouth so often. And why he appears to flip-flop, because sometimes he's caught off guard. But bottom line, without any doubt, he will do the bidding of the very wealthy as that's the only level he knows. He has absolutely no understanding of the realities in the world. And heaven forbid that he will have to deal with leaders of the world. That would be dreadful. Prez Obama is our very best bet, and with a strong Democratic Congress if we want to a strong country.

Did you catch Grandpa Fuzz in another lie, Earthgirl?

You've got a free cab ride coming any time you're in Utah...

And shoot, last month the trolls were insisting Bill Ayers wrote Obama's book for him...

Thanks for the offer. And to think I was once a republican - voted for (gasp!) Reagan's 1st term. Then I started paying attention, when he opened the door and shot the striking air controllers all to blazes. No, no. The closer I looked, the more he turned out to be just a front for the money boys behind him. He was no patriot, just like the rest of the repub presidents. Except Bushie baby, he was too dumb (I hate to say it).

That's when the money boys dug in their heels. They couldn't care less that Palin was on the same intelligence level as Bushie - she was a talker and good looker. The money boys had the presidency in the bag. And were they ever surprised when Americans voted for a Black Man - shock! Now it's out in the open how the repubs went through the votes to find anything and at the same time, a bunch started planning their strategy.

They spent big money on 2010 for the tparty takeover, by this time the money boys had it in the bag with their one-term. They counted on our Prez to be leaning over the aisle as he did (his nature) but he's learned. Anyway, it's been a trip watching how one party can take over a country. Hitler did it and it's a lifelong history project. Now we'll see if Americans are not swayed by the manipulated rhetoric of the repub/tparty. Are we smarter? Do the right thing and vote Democratic the whole way. Sorry I'm so long, but this is fascinating to me.

Cabdriver Confession: I was one myself. I even voted for 41 twice... But I drew the line on 43 and voted for Nader (not that it mattered on Planet Utah). By '04 I was clearly in the liberal camp... Well sort of... I still don't want kids seeing Internet porn (or movie violence), and legalized gambling looks particularly problematic to me (and I've gambled occasionally in the past; mostly legally across the boarder).

But judging from this one, it doesn't look the righties really want to talk about the economy...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47386200

U.S. consumer sentiment rose to its highest level in more than four years in early May as Americans remained upbeat about the job market, a survey released on Friday showed.

Here's you first clue, earthgirl, that nothing changed in 2008. Wall Street poured almost $500 million into Obama and the Democrat Party's campaigns that year, and now that they see what the economy looks like after 3&1/2 years of his presidency and the do nothing Senate (the place where House Bills go to die) under Democrat Party control, ain't giving bumpkiss this year to the bums. So, we got the pitch to Hollywood and the Media fat cats (other than Murdock), who are they're usual giddy selves over the "evolution" to support of "gay marriage" by our resident Chief Politician in Washington, DC.

Keith: You do realize that Hollywood contributors receive nothing, no subsidies, no sweet oil leases, no tax dodges, no fracking on public lands, etc. for their contributions.

Evolution is growth. From the abacus to the iPad. Where humans are involved, it's always evolution, a learning process. I think somewhere in one of those bibles it uses the word 'beget.' One begets from the previous. Simple.

Same with Prez Obama using 'evolve' on gay marriage. As a Christian, he was taught a certain theme and hung on to it. The Prez "did pray on it," this had gone on for years. And the Prez found his answer, part of which is the separation of church and state. You know, the part where Jesus said something like, "Render unto Caesar what is his, and to God what is his." We have a President who recognizes that the Constitution provides for equality. Finally it's recognized each of us have a right to define our own happiness. Good for everyone. Great that our Prez took a great political risk to adhere to the Constitution.

BTW, check out what the repub/tparty governor Snyder of Michigan did in Pontiac MI. That's just a beginning for the repub/tparty in this country. Walker in WI is trying to do the same, rape the state. That's the repub/tparty for you.

But we don't all have the "right" to decide to adopt certain behaviors, and then demand we get "protected class" status for it. That should be a simple enough concept for your evolving secularity, earthgirl.

Keith: Yes, we all have the right to decide our path in this world - christians teach that the Creator endows each with Free Will - I wonder when that happens. And that’s a discussion that keeps professors employed.

It appears you are equating 'adopted behavior' to homosexuality and the necessity to legislate as a protected class. IF acceptance of all creation by a Creator was inherent in each of us, there would be no need for legislation to ensure individual freedoms - this is worldwide, not just in the U.S. Because of the failings within each of us, we have laws, an equalizer. Common sense alone dictates that no one chooses a homosexual lifestyle, or rather, it may be a miniscule percentage that dissipates on its own. To go against the mainstream of humanity? Think on it. Science has found a definite link between chromosomes or whatever and homosexuality, that there are “differences” in nature, which BTW is very evident outside of humans too. Homosexual behavior is not learned, it’s not contagious, it’s been part of our world since man walked the earth.

“Protected class” is an interesting phrase. Yes, it’s too bad we have to legislate to ‘protect’ those that are different - mainly through the inability of ourselves to jump over the fence, accept and respect others for who and what they are. (Women, Blacks, non-christians) Secular? to a point. Religion appears to be a necessary appeaser, a community of sorts. However, to limit one’s perspective, to encroach on any person’s life, ah, what have we then? but a theocracy, where a very few rule the many. That’s what the so-called Founding Fathers were trying to protect us from, which is why we have a living document in the Constitution - it should be evolving (learning).

Which brings us back to marriage and the real world. There are 3 words that cover it all. Do No Harm. And under those words, to vote for a Democratic will not bring peace as touted in psalms, but it will give those of us who respect and accept differences, whether rich or poor, etc., a chance to level the playing field. Otherwise, what fun is there?

"Otherwise what fun is there?" It's not about hedonism, earthgirl. Its about family and societal supportive structure.

So earthgirl is a libertarian? I would think that Ron Paul would be more to you liking then as a Presidential candidate!

BTW: your earlier posted comment on Gov Walker should be seen in the light of the turnout he received from Republican and Independent Voters in Wisconsin on Tuesday, that affirmed and supported his policies. Remarkable as he was running unopposed, and the Democrat Party contested primary drew fewer votes for all their candidates combined for the Recall election in June. Doesn't look good for the pad the payrolls and the benefits packages of the unionized state and municipal employees of the big government Democrat Party. Might even be a forerunner election for how this swing state will go in November?

@Keith You're going to dismiss homosexuality as hedonism? How do you even connect those two dots? It's a shame that @earthgirl writes you a well thought-out and argued response and you can only respond with "what about the children/family!" No study has ever claimed that children raised in households with gay parents are any less well-cared for. It's a non-issue.

Keith, do you really mean to sound so uneducated? It is the Democratic (not Democrat) party. Or are you a member of the Republic party?

Rush Humbaugh® started that one, Della, and even though Keith called him a loudmouth one time (when I brought up Chris Matthews pointing out that it's a right of passage in Republican circles for the faithful to kiss Rush's--er ring), he's paid homage to him with the practice.

Did the incident of hazing in Prep School have any holdover to this Romney's adult life? Even the Washington Post (front page and 10 more following pages with a followup on the next day making it their prime piece of news when the market is tanking, the jobs picture is growing worse along with the slumping no growth economy is no more than an attempt to create an "unlikable factor" for Romney to counter the slump in the polls, especially in the swing states that Obama is experiencing) didn't try to link that to Romneys known achievements and underlying strong moral character and traditional family oriented individual.

Real world issues include the fact that European countries already offer gays and lesbians rights that the bigoted homophobes on the right would deny them here in a land whose founding charter includes the claim all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights...

The economy is recovering from the horror that Turd Blossom's crowd inflicted on the country. Yet he continues to spend money over the airwaves like the power-drunk puppeteer he is...

One can only hope it will help fuel the economy; the idiots underwriting him certainly have more money than they need.

Hmmm.... Short interlude while I read an e-mail from the President... Wants us to wish his wife, the First Lady, a Happy Mother's Day...

Done deal. Have a happy, dear. We haven't seen your level of class in a long, long time. Mrs. B. was nice enough, but she could've done the whole country a favor if she'd told her husband in the first place he wasn't smart enough to be president.

Hey Keith, I'm with you, lets deal with the real issues. This just proves that O'Donnell is what I have said in the past..a true "Penis Head". He is always bashing Romney, or the right wing. Wonder why he hasn't said anything about his "hero" John Edwards.. the real scum of the earth.

I've got a horrible visual of you sitting at your computer and wondering what inspired you to come up with that bit of trash talk.

What you do in your spare time in the privacy of your own place is your business, but could restrain yourself on possible spillover into your rhetoric?

John Edwards, eh? I see David Vitter is still in the Senate, John Ensign avoided the hounds, and as for Newt Gingrich... You're strangely silent on them.

Now regarding those "issues" why don't you compare stock market figures from when Bush left office with where they are now?

Jack Kennedy a rapist, and abject womanizer as was Bill Clinton (who was suspected of rape of that Canadian gal but paid off Paula Jones for her incident of sexual harassment by his exposing himself and asking for oral favors). Both of them preyed on vunerable naive young interns during their presidencies, defiling the Oval Office litterally, not figurarively. Now the sorry sage of John Edwards. Give it a break, cab diver. You are out of your league here trying to throw mud, although in your drunken days you spent enough time rolling around in the filth, I know.

I might be out of my league, Fuzzy, but I occasionally need a few rehab starts in the minors before I go back to the big leagues. Be careful, I've been practicing my brush back pitches...

Please point out to me where I defended Edwards' actions. I merely illustrated the hypocrisy on the right that condemns him. I note the Obama campaign was shrewd enough not to offer him a cabinet position.

And for all their flaws (and I mostly hated the Clinton Presidency at the time, but that one was largely the Repugs own fault with 41's lousy campaign and the Dole nomination), both JFK and WJC were better stewards of the presidency than Dead-Eye Cheney, the Shrub, and Turd Blossom.

And here's a Mother's Day greeting Keith Olbermann just tweeted...

http://globalgrind.com/news/sybrina-fulton-psa-mothers-day-trayvon-martin-video

Oooos... The ump has something to say...

YER OUT!!!!

Has that info enhanced your life?

Well, Cabbie, we didn't consider running Vitter or Ensign for the Office of POTUS, and last I looked didn't give very serious consideration to Gingrich either, who was more a darling of the leftist media briefly as they serially built up and then tore down right wing candidates they though they could get talking social issues instead of the economic issues of importance, looking to weaken the candidacy of Romney who they know is Obama's worst nightmare.

Grandpa, aren't you a little old to be playing with that Etch-a-Sketch?

Here's a bit from a CNN article in November. I was paying attention to it because Chris Matthews spoke here and said Newt was likely to be the next "flavor" in the anybody-but-Romney Teapublican nominating process.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/14/cnn-poll-gingrich-soars-cain-drops/

A new national survey of Republicans indicates that it's basically all tied up between Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich in the race for the GOP presidential nomination, with Gingrich on the rise and businessman Herman Cain falling due to the sexual harassment allegations he's been facing the past two weeks.

That one amounts to a double play (we big leaguers know how to turn them) since it mentions Cain and his boorish behavior as well...The Romney camp had to go negative and spend a lot of money to take down Newt after that rise...

Moving on, got an answer to that fact that Massachusetts was 47th in job creation while Romney was governor?

I mean besides that bit of roadkilled fiction I just hosed off my tires after you tried to pass off some crapola on the subject last weak?

Yes...it takes a bit of time and effort to create the tax changes and financing structures (Industrial Development Bonding) to draw industies and commercial enterprises that had been fleeing Taxachusetts in great numbers back into doing business in the state. By the end of his 4 years of patiently working with the heavily Democrat Party controlled legislature (usual tax and spend and regulate crowd of "progressives") Romney had manged to turn Massachusetts long slide to 2nd rate status around, and the bragging rights all went to his successor. You see, I lived and worked in Massachusetts and sered in community positions such as Planning Board member and menber of my town's Industrial Development Financing Authority, and had an Uncle who was managing editor and former owner of The Framingham News (serving Boston's surburban environs) so I know a little something about how it went down there you see.

Think of it as in the same manner as we are still waiting to see the payoff three years later for the $800 billion on Recovery Act deficit spending by the Obama administration, although in Romney's Massachusetts case, his administration found ways to leave the monies in the hands of individuals and businesses and balanced his budget instead of taxing and spending for social causes.

Note how Grandpa is willing to spin the Mittster's "heroic quest" and engages in some apologetics for him insisting the four years were necessary to "reverse Massachusetts' "slide," and yet he is trying to crack his imaginary bullwhip over the Obama campaign that has only held office for slightly over three years. Note: the Federal Government is a whole lot larger than that of the Commonwealth's.

The reason Bush didn't have a balanced budget was because his administration continue to ramrod those tax cuts through Congress while pursuing that amoral war in Iraq the testosterone-challenged crowd used as a dog-and-pony show to scare the masses with fairy tales of terrorists forcing us all to live under Sharia law. (see Cheney, Dick: "Deficits Don't Matter").

Now I probably shouldn't disabuse you of the notion I'm tailing you in the ol' police interceptor, but over on Maddow, AdamS is wondering how I managed to find "troll free zones" to post a bit of cabdriver wisdom (acquired as the result of more than a bit of pain). And usually I'm elsewhere involved on a couple of sites that wouldn't let you through the front door.

But hang onto that paranoia; it does more good for the Progressive cause than any of my most elevated writings.

And check out the graphs showing the jobs lost under Bush 41 versus the gains under the Obama Administration. You do know how to read graphs, don't you?

I see from other post topics since this that you are persisting with your obsession with my comments, and posting your bragadochio nonsense about your success with refuting my facts and figures with nothing more than repititions of the MSNBC commentators statements, past Democrat Party opperatives all. Do you really think they are providing you with objective news reporting, cab driver, of the uber liberal blogs you go searching in you spare time when you are sober? By the way, we missed you for a few days there a last week, were you off to one of your "rehab tuneups" again?

Homosexual couples create TONS of jobs...!!!!....:-).....

And they pay taxes and don't take that many deductions for children or overwhelm the educational and social services structures with their numerous offspring.

Too bad all those jobs the gays create are in the health professions taking care of the epidemic sexual transmitted diseases, not limited to AIDS and HIV Infections. Last I looked, homsexual acts were still a listed reason to have frequent HIV blood screenings.

Uh Grandpa, you did know both Leonardo Da Vinci and Michaelangelo were both gay, didn't you? And I can imagine what a blow it must've been when you learned about Liberace and the news ruined his music for you.

I guess it's time we added bigoted homophobe to your dossier... And please note that gays in committed relationships have no more need to worry about AIDS than ordinary heterosexual folks.

SL Cabbie: Just watched the video you posted. Thank you for that, and for your posts. They're keeping me sane amongst all these crazies. It's very difficult for me to understand how a person can be so opinionated and judgmental as to adhere to the word "obey," and yet they're the first to make exceptions for themselves.

Thanks again. That is a great video, Trayvon's Mom is a special person.

Cheer up, cab driver. The FDA is moving to approval of a new daily medication that will stave off the HIV infection for the at tisk population (read gay and bisexual men and the women that have congress with them). 1 in 5 of the 50,000 new cases of HIV infection are in women each year, and while that number is rising, that 50,000 number has remained constant since the crisis of the 80s with the gay community that did so wreck havoc with our Blood Supplies first put the fright to everyone.

Alas, abstinence and condom use and prescription of committed relationships hasn't stopped the ravages of this epidemic, nor the number of other sexually transmitted diseases primarily contacted by acts of sodomy amongst the nation's homosexuals. But you go right on chanpioning the hedonism...hope you don't smash up your cab some drunken night and have to get transfused in your local hospital, even though I doubt the rates of infection in moral Utah are anywhere what we see in California, New York, and other parts of the country where the "gay life" is slightly more abundant.

Keith Longey: "Last I looked, homosexual acts were still a listed reason to have frequent HIV blood screenings."

Last I checked, being sexual active in general is a listed reason to have HIV blood screenings, in addition to checking for STDs, probable health concerns, etc.

homosexual acts were still a listed reason to have frequent HIV blood screenings

Keith, what exactly do you mean by "homosexual acts"? Oral sex? Anal sex? Do you really believe that these things are only practised by same-sex couples?

If those acts are practiced by exculsively non bi=sexual men and women in man-woman committed relationships sexual activity is not a reason to have screenings for HIV infection or other sexually transmitted diseases. Problem being, what with modern secular culture, and a decided penchant for teaching alternative forms of sexual orientation education in our public schools instead of abstinence until marriage, one can never be totally sure of the background of one's prospective life long spouse.

And although I "came of age" in the 1950s, I did live through the tumultous 1960s and know what our society was headed for until the crisis of the HIV and AIDS from the homosexual population in the 1980s somewhat woke society up to the dangers of unleashed passions and licentious behaviours, in and out of marriage.

If those acts are practiced by exculsively non bi=sexual men and women in man-woman committed relationships sexual activity is not a reason to have screenings for HIV infection or other sexually transmitted diseases.

Keith, you make the same mistake as many other homophobes and biphobes, which is that you equate or associate a certain sexual orientation with a certain sexual behaviour. It's unsafe sex (in non-monogamous relationships) that requires regular HIV testing. Whether people practise unsafe sex (in non-monogamous relationships) or not doesn't depend on their sexual orientation but on their sense of responsibility. Putting all LGB people under general suspicion of being promiscuous, barebacking disease spreaders is very offensive and discriminatory.

And although I "came of age" in the 1950s

Wow, you must be really old. Well, if you could get used to the internet machine, then you are also able to get used to the idea of same-sex marriage.

Dorothea from Germany,

in "coming of age in the 1950s", Keith L. could be referring to hitting his teen years, or a bar mitzvah.

It's not likely he meant 18 or 21, that would be "reaching his majority".

Which would make him one of those 60-something grayhairs in lawn chairs or his hover-around chair at a Glenn Beck rally...

@ Karen503:

Thanks for the info. Indeed, I thought that "coming of age" means "turning 18". However, 60-something is still pretty old.

Here we go with the religious bigotry again.

Let us try pure reason for at least this one time. Here it is - faith and reason working together.

Many people are wondering why there are so many homosexuals in our population today. The answer is factual and simple. The major problem we face is over-population. Therefore God has changed the genome of mankind to alter the process of reproduction, and, thereby, save us from over- population destruction. God loves us so much that his plan to increase homosexuality is a divine method for showing his love.

Many people are wondering why there are so many homosexuals in our population today. [..] God has changed the genome of mankind to alter the process of reproduction, and, thereby, save us from over- population destruction.

Wow, that's an odd explanation. I wonder if you are serious.

Anyway, I think that the number of LGB people has NOT changed over time. It's just that nowadays more LGB people dare to be out and visible, so that it seems as if there were an increase in LGB people.

Keith Longey Here we go with the religious bigotry again.

Yes, that's all I've heard from the Right since 2001. You bigots attack an entire religion for the murderous intent of radicals, yet your own radicals don't hesitate to attack our President with words and threats of murderous deeds.

Cue your whine, "but you all did it to Bush!" Sure, only after the moron ignored all the warnings about OBL and Al Qaeda. Assuming, of course, that the intent wasn't to gin up a war anyway, hoping OBL played right into the military-industrial-complex' hands...

It only goes to show that the allegorical *original* created Adam from the second Genesis creation story was "male-and-female" in the image and likeness of God, which is consistent with Genesis 1:27, part of the first creation story in Genesis (there are at least three different writing styles in Genesis, according to scholars, indicating multiple sources for the material). Also consistent with the "secret name of God" discussed by Rabbi Mark Sameth in an article - read the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) backward, and you get the Hebrew words hu and he - meaning he/she. The existence of heterosexual marriage in the bible does not forbid same sex marriage - see 1 Samuel 18:1-4 for an example of a gay marriage in the Bible.

And of course, the Old Testament speaks God's bringing his wrath down with the destruction of the City of Soddom, and of course, we know who the soddomites are i today's hedonistic culture.

Imagine believing in a god that is so vengeful, so full of uncontrolled anger. It appears, then, religion and its deity is based on human characteristics? Look up arrogance, and delusion. Take a walk and enjoy spring!

I don't think the Old Testament portrayed God's Anger as uncontolled. More premeditated as a clensing action, as he warned Lot to take his family to safety beforehand,as I recall.

@Keith Longey - the story of the Men of Sodom from Genesis, and their intent toward Lot's visitors, is an example of macho misogynistic violent disrespect for strangers and people who are different. The story had nothing to do with homosexuality, despite the popular misconception that is accepted by people who like to wrap their prejudice up in a "Christian(ist)" wrapper. Indeed, there is a strong resemblance between the Men of Sodom and the people who preach from their pulpits a message of disrespect for people who are different from themselves, ranging from the Pope in Rome, to backwoods Pastor Rondell Lance in western North Carolina.

Ha ha ha ha ha! You should be writing for stand up comics, Joann!

When a RWNJ has nothing else, he acts like a middle-school bully, jeering at what he will never understand.

We are all waiting breatlessly for your "anthropoligical evidence" Tosa.

"Better to spill your seed unto the barren ground rather than in the belly of a whore"

Of course, they just didn't think of the unnatural alternative of sperming the throats or rectums of someone of their own gender.

Natural, now there is a concept. I think the basic issue is one of how one perceives that which is natural. If we look at nature, perhaps we can look to our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, the matriarchal bonobos, whose sexual practices would likely shock you, but are perfectly natural for them. What is natural sexual behavior for a human who is hardwired as straight is different from that which is natural for someone hardwired gay. In fact, if we were to *really* want to understand Romans 1, for example, if we think about the idea of "acting against one's nature" as that which is sinful, then it would be sinful for gay people to try to act straight. As a matter of fact, that makes sense - look at former NJ Governor Jim McGreevey as an example. He married, fathered children, and then when he could not deal with living a lie any more, his marriage broke up - everyne gets hurt, and no one wins. (Personally, I blame societal expectations for this kind of situation,not the gay individual in denial or the innocent spouse).

And monkeys throw their feces at visitors to the zoo! But that doesn't mean we are programmed to follow in their foot and tail steps as they swing their way thru their non reasoned lifes, Joann. Straight men and women that become adulturous with others of their own or seperate gender are simply acting out hedonistically without concern for their own basic moral codes..they are no more than illicit pleasure seekers.

Example: the hereosexual prostitution participant self destructive NY Governor Spitizer, who went on to Currant News with the other ethnically challenged "smart people" like Dan Rather and MSNBC reject Keith Olberman (now egotistically self sabotaged from that gig too).

Someone was quoting Jesus. It does not mean that Jesus said that. There is no evidence that Jesus said that. It what is called hersay.

Jo Ann: Your description certainly fits the Romney on display. I fear that the repub/tparty have the election 'fixed,' why else would he appear so pompous and expect voters to elect him. I do know that at Bain he wasn't active in making the real decisions, after all, that might put him in a bad spot if it should fail. Pity him, pity this poor man. All he has is money, which he needs to have for his lack of integrity, humility, and the characteristics of a human being.

Ha ha ha! Nice little piece of nonsense that, earthgirl.

I live in Utah. I voted for the amendment that defines marriage between ONE and One woman.

Well when you get them arguing in the trenches, Mormons and the other evangelicals sound pretty much alike. They're both willing to put their "Do-it-Yourself-Crucifixion-Kits" on the table at any time. Here are a couple of possible differences of the "Our Jesus can beat up your Jesus" variety.

"Our Jesus is the true Jesus, and He loves your more than their Jesus."

"Oh yeah? We think our Jesus was married and had children. [Cue up Dan Brown]. If you follow our religion, we offer sex after death! With a "multiple wives" options, no less!"

We all know the only sex after death is when you get LAID in the coffin, cab driver.

Grandpa, are you an atheist? That would explain why you're not over on FAUX...

But if there's no God, why are you so concerned with morality as evidenced by your attacks on a couple of presidents above and the "gay lifestyle"?

Just be grateful I don't use your tactics and suggest you're a necrophiliac for that one...

I guess I earned that. Ha ha ha!

My religious "evolution" went from Comregationalist to Unitarian/Universalist to Nature worshipper. So all things natural are my foundations, and less of the "cast no stone" Christian message. Especially when it comes to political dialogue.

Race and national origin are birth determined; sexual orientation and homosexual behavior is a personal choice issue, and does not automatically provide for protected class status therefore, Luigi.

Do I have to teach you bright eyed "progressives" everthing?

So Grandpa, per Chris Matthews, "How old were you when you chose to be straight?"

13 as I remember it Cabbie, but we always remember our first, don't we?

Let us try pure reason for at least this one time. Here it is - faith and reason working together.

Many people are wondering why there are so many homosexuals in our population today. The answer is factual and simple. The major problem we face is over-population. Therefore God has changed the genome of mankind to alter the process of reproduction, and, thereby, save us from over- population destruction. God loves us so much that his plan to increase homosexuality is a divine method for showing his love.

sexual orientation and homosexual behavior is a personal choice issue [...] 13 as I remember it

Keith, people tend to project their own character onto others. Therefore, people who think that sexual orientation is a choice probably believe this, because they themselves are actually bisexual and CHOOSE to deny or ignore their own same-sex attractions.

Oh really? Thats a big relief! I thought I was destined to be straight and miss out on all the fun of blood testing bi monthly for HIV Infection and other infectious diseases and forever lose out on experiencing the "thrill" of having a penis in my mouth or rectum. Maybe that is the reason my annual digital checkups for prostate enlargement (normal at my age) seem slightly uncomfortable is because psychologically I am a homophope, and it strikes at my inate deep seated fear of my self discovery that even I am homosexual?

Give me a break! Dorothea! You are so far astray with those comments above that you for sure will never find your way back to a "natural" state, I fear.

Maybe that is the reason my annual digital checkups for prostate enlargement (normal at my age) seem slightly uncomfortable is because psychologically I am a homophope, and it strikes at my inate deep seated fear of my self discovery that even I am homosexual?

Again, you falsely equate sexual behaviour with sexual orientation.

Regarding self-denial: The mere fact that you constantly refer to homosexuality as "hedonism" shows that you consider "homosexual acts" pleasurable. With this word choice you revealed yourself to be a secret homo or bi guy. Do you know who Cynthia Nixon is? She is actually bisexual, but doesn't like this label. That's why she claims that she's a lesbian by choice. Just like you claim to be straight by choice.

You are so far astray with those comments above that you for sure will never find your way back to a "natural" state

I am and have always been in my natural state. At the age of 10, I discovered that I am bisexual and I have never been in self-denial about my same-sex attraction. I merely wondered if other girls have those feelings, too. That's it. All sexual orientations are natural and equally good or bad.

I don't secretly wish for those second rate pleasures that gay men substitute for the real natural experience of being with a woman, and I suggest that your experience is really one of being in a trapped state of arrested adolescent development, but you would certainly be invited to join me and my partner of the moment in a threesome, I was so inclined, Dorothea. I like your sense of humor, if not your politics.

you would certainly be invited to join me and my partner of the moment in a threesome

Sigh. If I got a euro for every time I heard this, I would be rich now.

Sorry to disappoint you, dude, but I am very picky and only do monogamy. Now, who is the one with the promiscuous behaviour, eh?

You know, in Germany, we have the saying "Je oller, je doller!" (= "The older, the kinkier!"). In your case, this saying fits like ass on bucket.

I suggest that your experience is really one of being in a trapped state of arrested adolescent development

Ha, ha. At least, I haven't heard that one before. I am curious: Does that mean that you experienced same-sex attraction as an adolescent as well? You seem to think that such feelings are normal when growing up, but a (bad) choice later in life. I wonder what goes on in the mind of an elderly homophobe.

What makes you think that homosexuality equals hedonism?

Better yet, what makes you think it isn't hedonistic?

Keith, it is really telling that you don't want to answer my questions and try to evade them.

As I already told you in one of my previous posts, all (sexual) relationships are started or maintained for selfish reasons, because you wouldn't have them if they didn't benefit you in some way. There is no difference between opposite-sex and same-sex relationships in this respect.

However, it's contradictory that a straight homophobe considers same-sex relationships hedonistic.

I still await your answers to my questions from the previous post.

Uh, it looks like you dropped a decimal point in your droolings, there guy. It's around 10-12% of the population who are gay, and there are plenty of examples of homosexuality in nature. Here in Utah they get bent at a story I borrowed about lesbian seagulls who will allow themselves to be impregnated and then fly off with their female partners to raise their broods. Reason they get pissed is the California gull is the state bird here who allegedly saved the early Mormons from hordes of crickets that had descended upon their crops. Mormons believe that was a miraculous event.

I'm not one to defend the Mormons, but I gotta say a story about birds eating bugs is a lot more believable than one of a virgin conceiving a child.

There's plenty of scientific evidences pointing to genetic and in utero causes for homsexualty, but that stuff is way over your head. Tell you what, why don't you study the Egyptian origins of those "Christian" rituals you're singing the praises of. You'll find the story of the Resurrection traces back to Osiris, and the notion of "eating the blood and flesh of a god" is an ancient one. Too, there are pre-Christian stories of both Buddha and Krishna being born of a virgin...

And gays have no problem procreating when they choose to. One of my best friends has a lovely daughter, and he and are always arguing over whose kid is better looking.

And you do know that one of the Obama appointments to the Federal Department of Education has in the past raved about the inspiration he received from the founding father of SAMBLA (Society for the Advancement of Man-Boy Love "Association"?)

That's a little more insidious than the "Johnny has two Mommies" curriculum they try to force down the throats of local school boards. Or ursurpassing parents rights in teaching sexual awareness in Grammar School to include homosexual activity definitions and "self awarness".

Most sane people think of that paedophilic bent to be "grooming", not education.

But hey! "Gay marriage rights" is just the first step on the homosexual agenda, don't you know?

@ traditional Catholic:

Religion muddles the brain. Get off that drug. Quick.

And now one of Grandpa's personalities has resorted to pure Coultergese...

He doesn't even have his acronyms correct; "NAMBLA" tried to sign on to the "Gay Rights Parade," and as soon as legitimate gay activists saw their agenda and were horrified they were shown the door. Contrast that one with the multi-generational coverups of pedophilia in the Catholic Church.

There's barely a germ of truth in Coulter's slurs, and I'll happily stand for fact checking from impartial sorts on anything I offered.

Of more hedonistic and corrupt, like Rome perhaps before the Fall!

On a more important note: Geneticists are trying to find a homosexual gene. They have not found one. I believe that they will never find one because if homosexuality comes from genes, it will be from a variety of sources and not just one gene. They should be looking for a combination of factors. We do not know and we may never know if homosexuality is inherited or if it is a learned trait. I know I tried to be funny and irrational on previous posts, but now it is science. As a scientist I cannot understand how anyone can not believe in evolution.

Genes and in utero factors--that may be influenced by genetics--are probably indicated by what data there is. They haven't pinpointed the "alcoholism gene" either, and yet upwards of 50% of Native Americans suffer from its devastation (genetic "drift" probably explains that one, the result of small populations isolated for long periods after the Beringia migration, ~15,000 years ago, that created an overall loss of genetic diversity in their populations. The incidence of diabetes is similarly amplified). Most gay men have gay uncles, and its not hard to see that in "tribal times" extra males who did not compete sexually for females would convey a decided "collective survival advantage." Homosexuality may well be passed on indirectly by factors existing mostly in the maternal genome.

It's okay, you can use science and be funny; I picked it up but some here never will... Just keep practicing and be willing to lay an occasional egg. Not everyone is blessed to have a captive audience of drunks to practice their humor on every weekend...

The higher incidence of diabetes in Native Americans in the US is mostly as a result of the diet that our beneficial society has subjected them to...rich in lards and sugars, something that was absent in their native natural state of hunters and gatherers and a fledgling but well established simple agricultural society reliant on varieties of corn, squash, and bean plant growth.

Good luck looking for the "alcoholic gene", it doesn't exist. More a nerve synapse situation where the hand doesn't communicate with the brain to get the message" don't pick up that drink", Cabbie!

Without enought cholesterol, we experience higher rates of senility and alheimzers, you know, and less effective nerve function, Augustus. One of the side affects of the statin drugs!

Better Aristotles dictum: "All things in moderation".

I know the brain does need fat. Fat codes the nerve endings and if the nerve ending are not coded with fat they dry up and could cause mental problems. I also know that the bad cholesterol takes the ingredients to the cells. The good kind, HDL, cleans up after the LDL. It should not be called "bad choleserol" because it is does its work. What is important is the ration between the LDL and the HDL. Moderation is the key.