MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell explains how Herman Cain's 999-plan would destroy Social Security and Medicare, and leave us with a 30 percent national sales tax. Bruce Bartlett, a former senior policy analyst in the Reagan White House, joins The Last Word to help us crunch the numbers.
Secrets of Herman Cain's 999 plan revealed
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:14 PM EDT
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All the repub candidates are out to eliminate SS and Medicare. The new dog whistle phrase is that it should be a state program. Ask them how many states can afford a SS/Medicare system when they can't even properly fund schools. Cain will respond by citing his "Chilean" plan. If he does, then remind him that the Chilean government mandates that each person put aside 10% of their income. Yes, a government MANDATE! When will someone in his campaign learn how to Google?
Where is the rest of the News Media telling us about the "Fine Print" in the 999 Plan?
Cain actually expects people on Soc Sec / Medicare to go to their state, town or local church when they retire or get disabled?
The Wash Post Fact Checker, by Glenn Kessler, has a article titled "Herman Cain's 999 Plan: A Misleading Pitch" of the 9-9-9 Plan. READ IT!!!
@John and @Tom
Not sure that we are being fair and open when we evaluate these situations and campaign slogans. I don't think that the 9-9-9 plan is viable at all but maybe a game change is needed? Think both parties are weaving a web of deception but I could be wrong and since I have rubber stamped the Democrats for thirty plus years I hope I am wrong. I can not reconcile how lowering taxes can help us and yet when I listen to what we are talking about by closing these hot button loopholes and raising the taxes on the wealthy I really can't see that either.
Researched and found that the average revenue gain by pre Bush era taxes would generate $300 billion over ten (10) years and the loopholes being discussed would generate almost $200 billion over ten (10) years. Then both parties tell us that the revenue for just the federal government is $2.2 trillion but no projection of ten (10) years. When you add this up over the same timeframe the FEDERAL government will earn $22 trillion over ten (10) years. That's what 2.5% and basically ineffective. Very careful and well thought out play on words from a group of carnival barkers I would say.
Carefully worded confusion is also found in the other arguments. Lowering taxes on corporations will stimulate the economy. Well, we have done that repeatedly and we seem to find ourselves discussing it again ten (10) years later. Pretty much means that it is a short term fix to me but if you isolate the figures like they do it appears to work. In reality it is a group of economist trying to prove thier theory is correct at our expense.
Just signed free trade agreements which once again lowers taxes on foriegn billionaires and corporations but we are sold by the administration (Bush and Obama) and congress (Democrat and Republican) that this will employ more people. That is another slight of word or phrase. The truth of the matter is that we import approximately $3.3 trillion in goods but the government only gains $3 billion in revenues from it. By slight of phrase both parties just cut taxes by further reduction in tariffs to foreign countries while telling us that it allows us to export our goods to them? Only their government can afford our goods in two out of three countries we just signed with and one (Columbia) has it's major revenue stream being our foreign aid (look it up they are in the top five on the foriegn aid list). Net/Net loss for the US by moving manufacturing jobs and tax free money to them.
9-9-9 is not the answer but I think we need a real plan from other than the political elite, set aside the political vitriol, name calling and finger pointing and change this game once and for all.
There have been plans that have worked for ever in this country. What has never worked is tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, subsidies for companies to move overseas, and taxing the poor. We have seen how other presidents have handled the economy during worst days than this. Obama should raise taxes on those who can pay it to 40%. and leave the rest just exactly how it is. He who votes for war should be prepare to fork over a "war tax", they should institute the draft again. Right now those who volunteer, do so because they do not have a job and are patriotic enough to risk their lives for us. The wealthy do not send their kids. They are pulling a HCain. Sitting pretty while others fight, risk and lose their lives for those who benefit from the policies that protect wealth. There was a time when the wealthy paid 90% in taxes and they did pretty well. That is visible by the existence of multimillion dollar homes that are more than 100 years old.
So, it is not time to try again, what has not worked. We have had ten year of it and it has not been effective. Obama's plan has been tried and it has worked before.
Herman Cain is a complete and total idiot. After learning some of the finer points of the 9-9-9 plan I think the next time it's mentioned , we must consider the possibility that the speaker may have just given us Herman Cain's I.Q. three times! This plan would put huge numbers of people in the streets to starve to death if they survived the civil war that I'm sure it would start. If this is the best that the republican party has to offer, then President Obama can breathe easy because he has nothing to worry about. I think it is possible that Herman Cain was planted there to make the others look good. Mickey Mouse could beat him.
Thank you for debunking the pure insanity of that 999 plan. A lot of voters like simple ideas, even more when the economy is in crisis, which is why Cain is doing so well in the polls. I really hope the Godfather will fall as quickly as he rose...
Don't pull your punches... :D
Phase 1 - 9-9-9
Phase 2 – The Fair Tax
Phase 1 Enhanced Plan – Summary
@Wicked, The people on this site cannot answer that because it is far outside the scope of their brainwashed talking points. I see one person saying Cain is is a total idiot with a low IQ (hidden racism), even though he has a mathmatics degree and an MBA. One only has to look at his history to see that he accomplished 10 times more in his personal life than Obama. Because he is the new front runner, all these hacks will try to bring him down with their stupid insults but it will not work. Herman Cain will win.
This statement "Amidst a backdrop of the economic boom created by the Phase 1 Enhanced Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax." indicates a total lack of understanding of macroeconomics.
The 9-9-9 plan would further widen the chasm in wealth and income that exists in this country between the haves and have nots. It shifts more of the tax burden to lower income workers away from the wealthy. This is just not fair. While you may think that it isn't fair that the wealthy should pay more in taxes just because they are wealthy, they certainly should be required to help pay for the services that allow them to build and grow their wealth. Even if you don't care that the 9-9-9 plan is regressive it is not good for the economy.
While I have no problems with Herman Cain personally, this plan would NOT create an economic boom, it would lead to another great depression. What creates economic growth is market demand and increasing the price of everything reduces the demand for goods and services. Add to this the fact that low and middle income workers would see their income tax go up at the same time, and they are the ones who spend the majority of their income on goods and services, you have a double whammy. Low and middle income workers would have less disposable income and the goods that they need would cost more due to the national sales tax. You presumably have heard of the law of supply and demand. This is what this is all about.
On top of this, ending capital gains taxes would increase the incentive to speculate in financial markets, because there is no cost to buying and selling financial instruments. Speculation can help build industry, but in a time when there is no demand, speculation is really just gambling. Since we now have a higher concentration of financial assets in fewer companies than ever, if any of those gambles go bad the entire financial system could be brought down, as it almost was in 2007/2008.
No, the scenario you paint is totally inaccurate. As someone with a Ph.D. in business I am saying this not because I am listening to some talking points from either side, but because I am evaluating the impact of such a plan based on well known understanding of how economies operate.
@wicked
If you have done your taxes before, you may have notice that some people make less than the standard deduction. Those people at this time pay no taxes. You can have as many as six people in the family but if you do not earn more than the standard deduction plus the allowances per dependant (3900) you do not pay any taxes. Well, under the 999 plan those will pay taxes, 9% income tax, and 9% consumer taxes which according to the plan includes food. So, a poor person, who is already at the poverty line or under will not have enough to live. Let's say I make $20,000 per year. I pay in taxes 9% plus the 3.6% in my state taxes and 9% consumer taxes on the remaining of the money after fed and state. How much of that would it be left to pay $700 in rent (forget owning a home), $300 in utilities (forget winter, I probably freeze, considering the average apartment or home uses at least $200 a month in heating in winter. Then if I have a car three time a year oil change. $160 per month in gas. $160 per month in Mandated Auto insurance. Now, feel free to tell a person like that how to stretch the budget to accommodate eating, auto repairs, clothing, and medical insurance because Republicans will not have a public option, and then save some for retirement since Social Security will be non-existent. No, finish the math. You can use Chisenbop if you want to, it will not compute.
kurt,
herman cain may have been the CEO of Godfathers Pizza, but he was also a lobbyist for the fast food and restaurant industry.
when he says that the people "occupying wallstreet" are lazy and that they should blame themselves if they are not rich or if they do not have a job, and that all they really want is to take from the rich, he is totally out of touch with the reality that unemployment is through the roof, and that wall street stole this money from the protesters.
not that he doesn't have a right to his opinion, or to run his business as he sees fit, or to live his life. i think he is a hard worker and a very driven man, but his policies appear to be that of someone who is out of touch with the american people, and where money seems to be the bottom line.
as a lobbyist of the NRA, he led a campaign in 1994 to to stop a minimum wage hike, and successfully exempted servers from being included in the 1996 minimum wage law. i have not heard cain speak of his role as a lobbyist while campaigning, but i have heard him mention his fight against president clinton's health care reform as his most formative political experience.
as a part of this, he also lobbied for the tabacco companies like phillip morris. cain, as he rose to CEO of the NRA, worked closely with the tabacco companies to obliterate local, state and federal attempts to regulate smoking in restaurants and other public places.
he blames the unemployed/the protesters for their unemployment with rates through the roof.
he hates hikes in minimum wage (more money goes to the top).
he supported and was a lobbyist for Reynolds and Morris, and was an active partner to promote smoking.
gee, i haven't heard him mention that part of his history.
but if money has been the bottom line, and thinking only of his welfare, he has been successful.
I didn't see any of that in his history, which is all over the web. But since you mentioned it, I am all for smoker's rights.
Lawrence Herman Cain is on the koch brothers payroll that is where his 999 plan comes from. he has been on there pay roll since 2005
Well . . . I am a life long resident of Florida and our State Constitution prohibits an income tax. The revenues for state and local "Government" come from sales taxes and assessments for property taxes. Adding a federal sales tax to the state sales taxes I already pay for my purchases will be devastating. What do you think I will be buying . . . can you say nothing? Local government will have to raise my property taxes to the point that I will be unable to continue to live in the home that I "own". I took early retirement due to several serious medical conditions and I have to wait one more year until I qualify for medicare. I have already gone one year with out medical care since my Cobra policy expired. So . . . when I need help when there is no social security or medicare which, I paid into since I was 14 years old, I should go to churches and beg for help? I no longer belong to any church . . . organized religion has brought misery and terror to the people across the world for as long as there have been human beings. Caine and his ilk would destroy my quality of life and not even offer me the dignity of euthanasia. A dog on the street would fare better. I worked my entire life in state and local government providing care and service to the people of Florida. I never dreamed that my dedication would be rewarded with what I face today.
You know what, W. R. Carpenter? As long as there is breath in my body and as long as the Democrats can hold the line in protecting SS and Medicare, YOU WILL NOT have to face the misery you described. I have to believe America is better than that. Your hard work and dedication WILL result in you having a pension plan you earned and deserve (social security) and WILL allow you the piece of mind a Medicare card provides America's seniors.
I have always considered myself an Independent voter, but the politics of the last decade have caused me to vote for Democrats more and more. For the first time in my life, in Nov 2010, I pulled the lever for the entire slate of Democratic candidates.
America is still in for tough economic times, REGARDLESS of which party wins the Presidency and both Houses in Congress in 2012. The way I look at it, the Democrats will fight tooth and nail to prevent catastrophic cuts in programs that benefit low and middle income Americans. The Republicans will take every possible action to enact policies and legislation that will result in another huge shift in wealth from the low and middle income groups to the wealthy and uber wealthy. WHICH AMERICA DO WE WANT? IT IS A CHOICE.
And I choose to believe in America's desire for a strong, vibrant middle class - which is the backbone of our country. In addition, the generosity of Americans is woven in the fabric of this country - so will there really be a willingness to strip out our safety nets? We can be strong and genorous, yet still celebrate the opportunities our great nation provides for financial success.
I am not a big fan of organized religion, but I do believe in God and may God Bless the United States of America! And may God help us come to our senses!
NO CANDIDATE is saying that anyone approaching the social security benefit age will be removed from SS (vs, perhaps, younger workers in the future.) Anyone telling you that is a liar. Force them to cite the specific words from the candidate in question that they will remove social security from existing beneficiaries or those over, for example, 50 years of age.
Lawrence, it is truly incredible watching your show. I bet no one can find a more arrogant, smug, condescending pseudo-journalist on cable tv.
It's typicial msnbc garbage!
Hate all 24 hr news....Lawrence is no journalist..he's an socialist commie idiot.
@Adam
Smart man agree with you 100% about the news cycle but can't really agree with the other opinion stated but the opinion on the 24hr news is dead on
To: Hate all 24 hour news: So you do not like Mr. O'Donnell...
Why because he is more intelligent than your everyday Fox faux journalists. How many awards have fox won? Republicans do not like anyone who makes them think. They get a migraine. MSNBC research team is paid very well so they really look into every available source, from the library of congress to the Census, you name it. Fox cannot do that because if they did they would have to deal with the truth. And isn't it refreshing to watch an interview when even if we do not agree with the person interviewed that person is not interrupted? I watch an interview with President Obama on Fox and not even a sentence was finished. He was interrupted more than a hundred times.
Great show!
In 1992 I was 22 and took the bus/train alone across country from LA into Georgia. I found the deep South to be a very deeply different world from anything I ever knew living in CA. Sorry but I'll never forget that experience. Cains 999 plan is trash for no reason of it being from the same state as Carter,MLK, REM, and Flannery O'Conner however.
I just argued with a pro-Cain person today. I told her my sales tax will jump to 20 percent and my wages will not go up on 999. She said she likes Cain because he not a politician! I didn't ask her if she was aware Cain is a minister!
Are Cains pews filled with people who want to take on the jobs of the state? When will the Republicans stop dragging the church down to the level of the state? The church as body of Christ is holy.
I wish Obama and the Dems would have taken healthcare to the people same as he/they take the jobs bill. Obama does have the great ability to educate and inspire people! (We didn't give him that desk just to sit at. We gave it to him to also stand on!) FYI : NOBODY I come in contact with on the "working poor" daily level I live at has a clue what is Obamacare, what is the healthcare bill that congress passed. And Fox news keeps saying it is horrific.
how will your sales tax increase 20%
It will actually increase 100%. My sales tax is now 9%, it will go to 18%. That is a 100% increase. Lots of Americans don't get that. They think an increase from 9% to 18% is a 9% increase. NO. A 9% increase to a 9% tax would result in it increasing to 9.81%. Increasing a 9% tax to 18% is a 100% increase.
And we wonder why America is falling behind other countries in math.
Be honest, how many of y'all quickly realize increasing from 9% to 18% is a 100% increase? I hope I underestimated y'all and you all indignantly comment back that, of course, you KNEW it is 100% increase.
Our taxes will be increased by 5% more. And we are not rich. I will be paying 29% as total taxes.
Actually it is possible to find far more arrogant, smug, condescending, psuedo-journalists than Lawrence on cable TV. Just tune in to Fox News.
Compare ratings Cdr. ORielly 3.5 million, Larry on a good night 800 thousand. If political commentary were a sport this show would be jock itch.
Jeff P-1939810...couldn't agree with you more...this show could be on the IR list, or failure to compete.
jeff,
you sure like to mention "jock itch".
you mention it every day, all day long.
do you have a problem?
Great show tonight, Lawrence!
This will also eliminate any reason for employers to provide employees with a pay stub. Good luck proving your income to a bank for a loan or any type of credit.
Lawrence O'Donnell is the ONLY person I have seen point out the glaring discrepancy Herman Cain uses in his 999 plan regarding payroll taxes. When I watched "The Last Word" on Wednesday, I screamed at the TV - FINALLY, somebody GETS IT!
Mr. Cain always starts by saying low and middle income Americans will no longer have to pay the 15.3% payroll tax. HOWEVER, INDIVIDUALS ONLY PAY 7.65% in payroll taxes, employers pay the matching part. (Only self employed Americans pay 15.3% payroll taxes).
This HUGE MISCALCULATION in Mr. Cain's starting point COMPLETELY blows up all his claims about just how the 999 plan won't result in significant tax increases for low and middle income Americans.
THANKS AGAIN TO LAWRENCE O'DONNELL for exposing the nitty gritty "devil in the details" of Herman Cain's 999 plan!
It will be interesting to see if the other GOP candidates "copy off Lawrence's homework". And the other political analysts - how disappointed I have been that NOBODY pointed out this before now.
And y'all know what? I am gonna quit worrying about Herman Cain. Americans WILL NEVER elect him as President! I just have more faith in all of us than that! I will further predict that EVEN the Republicans are not dumb enough to nominate him as GOP candidate. I was having panic attacks for months about first Sarah Palin, then Donald Trump, then Rick Perry and now Herman Cain. But, slowly but surely, they are weeding out the wing nuts. Looks like it will be good old Mitt as nominee.
Now I will be voting for President Obama. And I know a right wing nut nominee would almost guarantee President Obama's reelection. BUT on the off chance the Republican nominee could win, even with a right wing nut, I have to hope eventual nominee is Romney (Huntsman would be even better).
But VOTE ALL DEMOCRATS IN 2012!
What's the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Can I remind you what your vote did for the country last election?
-More Wars for Oil (Libya)
-Worst poverty rates in US History.
-Gitmo still open
-Arming the Mexican Drug Cartels
-500 Billion to a fraudulent "Green Company" so Biden can have a photo op.
-Worst unemployment in history
-Job Czar moving his own company's jobs to China (GE)
I could go on and on, but I will stop here.
Don't be afraid of the real black man and let's all get rid of the imposter with absolutley no leadership skills other than being a good speaker (except when the tele-prompter malfunctions)
So now the Left is complaining their taxes will raise; isn't that what you wanted all along. If you don't vote for Cain it is because you are all afraid of a real dark skinned intelligent experienced black man. Liberals are all closet racist who voted for Obama because it was the "in" thing to do, they thought it would cure them of their "white gulit", and he was very "white" acting and light skinned. Now a real black man is on the scene and their true colors of hatred and bigotry shine brightly. Bunch of nuts talking about their benefits being taken and people starving to death like dogs in the street. Get a Grip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kurt, it really don't matter what color u r....u talk like an idiot. I AM a real black man with all the experience of growing up in the racially tainted 6o's/70's and I wouldn't vote 4 anyone who obviously has no compassion for the most vulnerable ppl in this nation. There is more at stake here than JUST the economy, which is very bad. And if u or any of ur teapublican croonies were serious abt getting this country rolling again, the Bush tax cuts would have been eliminated....Tell ur croonies to stop being obstructionists. Oh yeah, PRESIDENT OBAMA IS THE TRUE BLACK MAN IN THE RACE. CAIN IS JUST A KOCH BROTHERS' PUPPET IN ''BLACK FACE''....
Ha Ha. Another black man who can't stand the thought of another black man thinking for himself and not marching goose step with how you tell him to. So hypocritical.
You have been brainwashed by the white liberal media.
Income Tax Proposal from "The 99%"
Income Tax Proposal from "The 53%"
A Income Tax Compromise
There is another aspect to this that I haven't seen discussed. If you get a paycheck from your employer, the question of how much income you have is very straightforward. You will pay 9% on every penny. But if you are self employed or you own or operate a business, what qualifies as income? For instance, when determining what a businessperson's taxes are, clearly the rent on the office and paying staff is an expense. What about attending a conference? If the conference is for a week at a luxurious hotel in Hawaii? Business lunches? The use a a vehicle? Throwing a "business related" social event? The use of a private jet? These are very simplistic examples of what would actually be a very complicated question, and I have absolutely no doubt that there would be lots of pressure on congress and the IRS to expand the definition of expenses, and thus decrease the amount of taxable income for the top earning segment of our population.
And by the way, Mr O'Donnell. It was *truly sickening* to watch you "Take offense for all the veterans of the Vietnam War at the fact that he [only served his navy in the capacity the navy asked him.]" Did you not listen to the answer? He said that he spoke to an official who told him his country would be better served by his remaining in the role of a mathematician. You purposely ignored that to heartlessly berate the man. You happen to disagree with him on certain things he DID say and DID do. How about focusing on those you disgrace?
It's racist to call Cain names, but it's ok to call Obama a nazi, a terrorist and all other absurdities the extreme right seems to be so in favor of these days.
Cain doesn't have a clue how to run a Government. A Government is about the well being of the people, not about making profits or pitching a product. Government is not a fast food franchise empire. Government is not about greed, or shouldn't be.
Cain talks about small taxes and wants to burden the people with the one thing that hurts the most, a sales tax on everything. Is this small government? No sales tax is a very attractive proposition that some states use to attract new business, what happened to that GOP talking point of state rights and limited government?
Cain defends Perry when he's called a racist, then he turns around and calls his fellow African Americans racists simply because they don't vote Republican?
The guy needs to get a grip, the hypocrisy here is extraordinary and it's time for the American people to wake up and smell the rat here in the GOP field. All these talking points and slogans, Tea Parties and insults, all brainwashing. What they really want to do is to protect Wall Street while making the regular, hard working, blue collar American pay the price and carry the burden.
question to Cain supporters. does that pizza come with free Koch?
lol....I wish I had come up with that one...lol
Finally, someone resonded to the 9-9-9 with facts. Anyone who has ever filed a payroll tax report knows that people who work for a company only pays 1/2 of the payroll tax of 15.3% of wages up to . The company pays the other 1/2. Until the end of the year the emploee only pays 5.65%. The rate goes back up to 7.65% if Obama's tax cut is not renewed. The FICA tax is paid on the first $106,800 earnings and the medicare tax is not limited. Sorry for the details, but as Michelle Bachmann says, the devil is in the details. Thanks.
Every time you start talking about entitlement reform, the free loaders & liberals all come un-phucking glued...
Lawrence of Stupidity should change the name of his Bull$hit TV show to "The Larry Loves Larry show"...
What a self absorbed azzhole.
Ppl like u r the reason the confederacy is where it is....DEAD!! Just keep it up....
What you people don't know or just are not paying attention, in 2014 the top line tax will go to 48%.........
And Ostupid wants to add more to that right now.
So a 48% rate means you work from January through June to pay the government/ or more to the point to pay the free loaders/liberals way in life.
Hooray for the math skills of conniegroggins -- and here's an explanation to "wicked" (who certainly is just that )
The middle class worker's new contract in the auto industry is $14.50 per hour which comes to a gross annual salary of $30,160. Take out a 9% income tax, take out a 9% sales tax (which Cain wants to put on everything from food to rent to clothing) and then assume the worker will save 15% for his own retirement and medical care in his old age (as Cain is eliminating the 7.5% payroll tax for the worker's Social Security and Medicare and the matching payment that will now be returned to the employer) -- and that will leave the worker with $20,207 or $1,683 per month for shelter, food. clothing, heat, transportation, saving for his kids' education, state and local taxes, etc.
The Cain 999 plan is nothing more than a transfer of what remains of the assets of the middle class to the top 1%, which wants it ALL.
What has taken the press so long to figure out the 999 plan? Don't any journalists even know what the components of payroll taxes are? Do they not understand that Cain is eliminating Social Security and Medicare? Reportedly Cain is supported by college educated Republicans. They can't all be in the top 1%, so do they make their selection for President using the same criteria they select their favorite on American Idol or Dancing With the Stars?
Please, Republicans, THINK
A survey of the comments on this story tells me that the Cain tax plan has less credibility than the Lost Continent of Mu. So it was as much to satisfy my own curiosity about this disreputable piece of quackery that I concocted a spreadsheet demonstrating the effects of 999. Using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau, I calculated the tax burden on all filers of federal income tax forms in 2010 if the Cain plan had been in effect. It would have been devastating. Deprived of the social safety net, which Cain wants to abolish, without the exemptions that would disappear if, as he would like, the tax code were abolished, and with virtually all after-tax consumption subject to a 9% sales tax, the average total tax bill of all filers would increase seven fold. The tax burdens of homeowners would be multiplied by 667% and renters would pay more than 16 times their 2010 tax bill. And the greater part of this burden would be felt at the bottom of the income scale, meaning those averages would worsen for the less affluent. Herman Cain is a charlatan and his tax scheme is a fraud.
If all this cut this and cut that would create jobs, where r they? The Bush cuts have been in effect for yrs. WHERE R THE JOBS???? It's all abt power with these ppl..not governing in a responsible way. U guys lost the last Civil War and if the teapublicans keep up their stupidity, that's where we're headed again..and it won't be pretty, either...It's a new day, massuh....
Wow that was just an ignorant statement.