I don't agree with either map or target symbols but Palin's map actually had the NAMES of the congressmen and Her "Reload" narrative to go along with it...Big difference

These maps may look similar, but they are very different in substance. The DLC map shows targeted states - indicating goals to aim for. The Palin map shows rife scope crosshairs and individual names.

Sarah Palin created a hit list and I fear that Gabby Giffords' shotting is just the start.

The two maps do not even compare. It is CLEAR what was meant by the DLC, and it was clear, with all the violent rhetoric against the Dems and the President by Palin and her ilk, what Palin did.

I had actually written another response but I don't think it went through because I had to register...so this is what I said in a nutshell

As a Professor of Communication Studies whose focus is the rhetoric of the media, I can assure you that the shooter was certainly influenced by the "gun rhetoric"---in other words, the word family, that has infused politics recently. It is ironic indeed that the local ABC affiliate in Tucson is KGUN, and that Arizona has some of the most lax gun laws in the country. It is an almost automatic equation: heated rhetoric plus the ease with which to buy guns plus the attack on the validity of government equals fertile ground for violence in the minds of deranged and misguided people.

Allen Levy, Assistant Professor of Communication Studies, Chapman University, Orange, CA levy@chapman.edu

The DLC map only looks bad when shown together with the Palin map. If there is no context given, no one knows the important differences. Palin's map and rhetoric (Don't retreat--RELOAD!!) combined with rifle scope cross-hairs alludes to violent overthrow of the Democrats. They also "aim" at people, not states.

The DLC map has targets, or bulls-eyes. They look to target the states that the Republicans won, not the people. There also isn't any allusion to violence or gun-fire in "taking back" their districts.

The maps seem extremely SIMILAR to me! This whole thing is ridiculous. A psychotic person MIGHT be incited to violence by either map, but usually, if they are that sick, they don't trust anyone but the voices in their head!

Let me up front here. I am a conservative. I listen to conservative television and radio hosts. My first response when I heard of the shootings was to pray for ALL the victims and their families. I bawled more than once yesterday listening to the interviews of the parents of the 9 year old girl's parents. I have a granddaughter the same age!

I was appalled that some on the left immediately started blaming the "vitriolic" rhetoric of Sarah Palin and others. They were saying this before anyone even knew the name of the shooter, much less if he had any political leanings!

AZ sheriff Dupnik angered me when he said "they are blocking..(the) bill that is only designed to make America a better place" To me he came across as so self righteous ! That made me mad because I feel just as passionately that the Health Care Bill is driving our country to bankruptcy! I shouted at the TV! But would I even wish violence on the sheriff, much less do violence. NO, ABSOLUTELY, NO! That is why this whole thing is ridiculous- most Americans would never resort to violence regardless of how much "vitriolic" rhetoric they hear!

If they have tendency to be bigoted, they may become more embolden with their bigotry(which is bad enough and sad) but, violence... NO!

Here are the 2 conclusions I can come to from this terrible tragedy:

1. Something was missed when the check for a gun licence was done on the shooter. This needs to be investigated, and if need be the process needs to be tightened up.

2. Too many seriously mentally ill people fall through the cracks. Maybe we can find away to keep this from happening WITHOUT taking away any rights of the 99.9% of us who are harmless.

Thats's it. Period. No political agenda!

America needs an answer! Subject: The Rhetoric of Hate

Aside from possible military combat, Mr Goebbels never murdered anyone.

Neither did Mr. Hitler.

Obviously, some nut cases did it.

Why are Goebbels and Hitler blamed? According to some in the USA, they shouldn't be.

Palin is actively distancing herself from seditious advocation.

"Crosshairs" targeting democratic candidates on a campaign map?

Hell no, they were location symbols indicating sites of SarahPac support.

How could anyone think otherwise?

How? Too boost lagging ratings of her TLC show (just before XMAS) Palin gratuitously slaughtered an obviously tranquilized and immobile Caribou on national TV.

For whose entertainment, I prefer not to consider.

She used a rifle with a scope (and though the target was within 100 yards, multiple shots were required)

Scopes use crosshairs for target acquisition.

While no marksman, Palin finally demonstrated the objective of aligning the crosshair into the kill zone.

A squeeze of the trigger is all that remained.

Indeed.

The maps are the same.  The differences which the Palin haters keep pushing is irrelevant.  The intention and message was exactly the same.  In 2004, a presidential election they targeted the states, because the person they were targeting was George Bush, that's who they were running against in each and every state.  In 2010, it was a midterm, so the targets were district.  The goal was to vote this congress person, or that one out. 

This, plus the fact that all the facts coming out show that his beef was because Giffords didn't take him seriously during a 2007 town hall.  (That's one year before anyone had even heard of Palin AND has no political meaning anyways)

On a personal note, I think anyone who would use this tragedy to gain political clout is simply the worst type of person.  To find some obscure comment/graphic from a PAC website and use that as definitive proof that your political opponent is somehow connected to demonize her is politics at it's lowest, and uses the victims, while the rest of us are praying for them and their families.  

America needs the answer to the rheortic of hate.

Aside from possible military combat, Mr. Goebbels never murdered anyone.

Niehter did Mr. Hitler.

Obviously, some nut cases did it.

Why are Goebbels and Hitler blemed????According to some in the USA, they shouldn't be.

A picture is worth a thousand words!! Words do matter!!

People in authority and people with public influence need to be held accountable for what they say and should be held at higher standards. They need to be the example for the people they represent!! Sarah has a lot to learn but she is not alone -- the love of money, fame and greed is going to be the ruin of this nation if we don't change the way we do business.

From a Book filled with wisdom:

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Proverbs 18:21 The tongue can bring death or life; those who love to talk will reap the consequences.

I have always said the CIA needs to keep closer tabs on her and such a radical group of people moving their way into our political system, and we have to be very careful who we vote into office. I will join others to vote for an amesty to make sure SP never gets to the White House, Senate, or House of Reps.

To be completely accurate, the Dems map does not look like a series of dart board targets. They look like archery targets.

Jackie Speier, was shot, left for Dead.

Remember, "Drinking the Kool-aid?"

She Survived.

How shameful O'Donnell. Tell me peoples names that the Democratic "bullseye" map was targeting. Now tell me about the violent gun rhetoric used against those people. Something like "don't retreat, reload" followed by a list of very specific names. Finally tell me one politician who came forward and said they felt threatened by the Democrats map.

Larry,

I'm only writing to you because I thought of you as a fact driven and deliberative individual. These headline grabbing senseless killings have one common denominator, the mentally ill. Blaming everyone else is useless. The debate should be about what can be done to intervene early on to prevent these events. Currently first responders and medical personnel are extremely reluctant to deprive a person of their freedom for acting unusually. If force has to be used and the mentally ill individual is injured and a hospital professionals won't sign off on treatment the individual officers become liable for an improper detention.

Lets begin a debate of what should be happening in the entire mental health community. The tort attorneys also must be included in the discussion.

Political rhetoric, music, guns or out spoken sheriffs are not problem. This conclusion is based upon 30 years of street policing.

I am very annoyed by the false equivalencies. I am also annoyed by L.O. stating time and again the ONLY reasonable reaction is to blame only gun control. Yes, this is "ONE" very valid and important factor. But, it is also very important to highlight the very toxic, vitriolic demagoguery that is has become the norm in some arenas. As well as, the profound lack of mental heath help available to those who might be healthy productive members of society with the right help. None of these are mutually exclusive, ALL need to be addressed. To do less is to miss opportunities to make important improvements in more than one critical area.

SHAME ON LAWRENCE to minimize the power of words, and to go beyond and insinuate that it is unreasonable to say they have weight and impact. Tell that to the families of Doctors murdered for performing abortions. I am appalled that Mr. O'Donnell should be defending or minimizing the impacts of hateful and violent speech and imagery! Words DO have consequences - if they don't, then why not shut up!

Lawrence you began the program asking the right question regarding gun control and noting that focusing on Sarah Palin diverted attention to the need to enact stronger gun controls especially banning semi-automatic weapons and multiple bullet clips. However, you then let your guests drift and focus on the wrong issue which is whether Sarah Palin's targeting Gabbie's Gifford's Congressional District was the real trigger that caused Loughner to commit his heinous act.

Read Gail Collins op-ed piece and see how skillfully she hones in on the gun control issue. Nuts, whether politically motivated or not, cannot be controlled. Words flow and how they are filtered by a mind is beyond anyone's control. However, to allow nuts to easily obtain weapons intended to mass kill people is nuts. Congress is the culprit and is culpable for allowing these weapons to be legal and purchasable by anyone with the money to pay for mayhem. Is the dubious right to own a gun and use it more sacred than the right to assemble and to engage in free speech? Is a Congressperson's job security more important than the lives of their constituents for whom they swear to serve and protect?

Will our President ever find his voice and lead?

Can any of these politicians match the courage of those innocents who died including a nine year old and who were injured on Saturday? Look not the right nor to the left but look at you members of Congress and Mr. President. Do something different and hope for different results. Make us feel confident that taking away weapons of mass destruction from Americans willing to kill Americans is not beyond your pay grade.

Oh for crap's sake. READ THE DAMN ARTICLE that goes with the map. There's not a single Republican's name in it. It's all about ways Democrats (mainly conservative Democrats; remember, this is the DLC, not the Democratic Party, per se) can make gains in red states that were carried by Bush. It dates from 2004. There are no specific races mentioned, no seats "targeted." This is pathetic, Lawrence, simply pathetic. And if this is the best the right can come up with for equivalency, I feel much better that's there's nothing out there from the left that's seriously comparable, or they would have been trumpeting it all over the media.

Enjoy the hate YOU created!

Daily Kos 'Bull's-Eyed' Giffords for Defeat
Monday, 10 Jan 2011 08:46 AM

By Theodore Kettle

Liberals may be making the wild stretch of blaming Sarah Palin for Saturday's shooting of Arizona Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, but one of the Internet's most popular progressive activist sites targeted Giffords for electoral defeat in 2008 in much the same way as Palin's "cross-hairs" map did in 2010 — with Daily Kos founder and publisher Markos Moulitsas even using the term "bull's-eye."

On the day of the shooting, the Hillbuzz.org website reproduced screen grabs of Moulitsas' posting, noting that "Daily Kos targeted Gabrielle Giffords with a 'bulls eye' back in June of 2008."

Moulitsas was incensed at Giffords and 104 other House Democrats
he accused of having just "sold out the Constitution" by voting for amending and enhancing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The legislative revision retroactively protected telecommunications companies from being sued for facilitating government monitoring of suspected terrorists' phone calls and e-mails.

"Who to primary?" Moulitsas asked using his famous username "kos."

"Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week." According to Moulitsas, "This vote certainly puts a bull-s-eye on their district."

Beyond Giffords, the Daily Kos list of "bull's-eyed" Democrats included the top two members of the House Democratic leadership — then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California and then-House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Maryland — as well as all but four of Giffords' fellow members of the moderate-to-conservative Blue Dog Coalition. The 105 Democrats who voted for the FISA amendments joined 188 House Republicans, with the measure passing 293-to-129.

Moulitsas promised in his posting that "the corrupt, the tone-deaf, and the reactionary within Democratic ranks will face the possibility of primary battles," warning that "the combined might of the Pelosis and Hoyers won't be enough to effect change."

Another Daily Kos contributor on Thursday — two days before Gifford was shot but one day after Giffords, along with 18 other House Democrats, voted against keeping Pelosi as Democratic leader — wrote a posting blasting Giffords entitled, "My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!"

"BoyBlue," who claimed he "worked like a dog" for Giffords as a state
representative in Arizona, fumed that "Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is dead to me now. I won't lift a finger, make one phone call, nor will I EVER vote for her in the future."

Daily Kos removed the posting from its site after the shooting. Still, Moulitsas is himself known for "hate" rhetoric that relies on violent imagery. Last year, he wrote a book on conservative activism with the title, "American Taliban: How War, Sex, Sin, and Power Bind Jihadists and the Radical Right."

In it, he states, "Fact is, progressives hate the Taliban and other Islamic fundamentalists precisely for the same reason we hate rabid conservatives at home: their fear of change. Their fascistic efforts to impose their narrow worldview on the rest of society."

Moulitsas even accused conservatives of mass killing: "Everything Bush said about those radical jihadists could be said about our very own American Taliban — that they have 'sacrificed human life to serve their radical visions' (Iraq, for starters), and that 'by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism.'"

The "dangerous" language liberals are attacking Palin for using, by comparison, centers on a Twitter message in which she told supporters, "Don't retreat, RELOAD!"

The Hillbuzz site also reproduced a Democratic Party U.S. map using bull's-eye symbols to denote vulnerable states that were almost identical to the cross hairs denoting vulnerable congressional districts featured in the SarahPac U.S. map for which Palin is being criticized.

The Democratic map is entitled "Targeting Strategy" and features a captioned entitled "BEHIND ENEMY LINES." The bull's-eye symbols were placed on nine states that President George W. Bush narrowly won in 2004.

"Democrats use 'bull's-eye' targets extensively in their political graphics," the website noted. "This map shows states Democrats want targeted. Arizona, which Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords represents, is surrounded by these targets." On the Palin map, three Arizona congressional districts featured targets.

SarahPac aide Rebecca Mansour told talk radio host Tammy Bruce, "we never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights," describing the figure used for the target districts as "a surveyor's symbol." Mansour maintained there was "nothing irresponsible about our graphic," which she said an outside professional graphic designer produced.

Ms. SarahPac aide is lying through her teeth. Palin made specific references to "bullseye icons" on the map in her congratulatory Tweet after the election. She puts the lie to her staffer in her own words. It's a pretty pathetic attempt to cover her behind after the fact. Also, Daily Kos did not remove the diary. That's not the way the site works. The author (an ordinary user, one of 250,000 registered on the site, not a moderator or front page poster) did, out of sensitivity and shock after the events of Saturday, and he apologized for his rhetoric, which is more than the lying Sarah Palin will do.

Plus, "dead to me" in no way implies violence, just shunning. The person has to be alive, by implication, to be "dead" to one person vs. just plain dead. I'm sure a quick Google search on any right-wing blog will turn up that phrase as well, applied to some RINO who didn't vote the way the poster or the blogger wanted on some issue. And these right wing bloggers know that. They're just desperate to deflect from the transgressions of their own. And what was the horrible threat by BoyBlue? He won't vote for her, or campaign for her. Oh my. No Second Amendment remedy from him, just a First Amendment one.

The sheriff did not state or blame any particular party, no specific politician or broadcaster was called out as a direct cause, all that was called for was a more CIVIL discourse. That should be something we can all agree on. For those who jump to defensiveness, perhaps some "soul-searching" is in order. Why wasn't the immediate reaction, yes - both sides should take this terrible tragedy and learn from it. It doesn't matter that ultimate cause, perhaps the six lives lost can find meaning if we can learn to be passionate about our thoughts without being hateful and making enemies of our fellow citizens. We probably can find much more common ground with if there were real opportunities for in depth respectful discussions. But, those who have great power and money or influence, who seek to keep that power and influence by making sure that everyday citizens are at one another's throats rather that having the opportunity to seek common ground. Let's hope the moderates of the country will do just that and leave the extremist in the fringes where they belong. And demand a more civil discourse based on truth and facts not spins and twists and call out hateful, vitriolic and violent speech. It is my hope we as a country learn from this.

Sarah Palin ALONE and only Sarah Palin, distributed a hit list with cross hairs targeting not only the districts these Democrats are in, but their names listed next to the map as well, including Gabrielle Gifford's name. Sarah Palin is the only one who did this and her alone. A U.S. map complete with cross hairs targeting the offices complete with the names of real live human beings including a woman on that hit list who has now been in fact targeted and SHOT for real. Sarah Palin is inciting and encouraging Domestic TERRORISM with her big ignorant mouth and her sick cross hairs imagery which she finally now has gotten the kind of results Gabrielle Giffords WARNED about when she saw that very same map during a recent interview. Palin is guilty of Domestic Terrorism and should be jailed and investigated immediately. If that map were distributed by an average Joe that person would now be in custody under serious questioning.

HR 3162 SEC. 802 DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM

Palin Cross Hairs Map - Palin, GUILTY.

(4) by adding at the end the following:

`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--

`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

`(B) appear to be intended--

`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;

Palin Cross Hairs Map - Palin, GUILTY.

As soon as the event hit the headlines and Sarah's map popped up they dropped it from her Facebook and the web. Too late, one of her aids, Sarah Palin's new media aide, Rebecca Mansour sought to deflect attention from an electoral map Palin posted on her Facebook page last March in an appearance on Tammy Bruce's radio show Saturday. "The images long described as crosshairs or rifle sights were actually just surveyor's symbols, Mansour said'.

NOTE TO MONSOUR: If you want to spin, get your information correct.

WE BELIEVE WE HAVE THE TRUTH

To set the record straight and to educate Palin's spokes-peep, those are not "Surveyors marks". They can't even get the spin right! They are "Registration Marks" used in lithographic or offset plate printing for the past fifty years to insure registration.
This is a Surveyors mark " /|\ ". Three lines of angle delineation.

Is Sarah Palin to blame for this tragedy? No. The deranged psychopath that went postal does take the blame, but who set the stage or planted the seed. I find it amazing we are, as I learned from MSNBC Lawrence O'Donnell last night, the only country with a phrase for going off the top and shooting fellow Americans for no substantial reason at all. "Going Postal" is a phrase unique to the US.

Using a target is not the same as using cross-hairs of a gun. Advertisers target potential buyers; political parties target constituents; teachers target students for special help. It's very different than putting someone in the crosshairs of a gun!